My dear friend Matt responded to a comment on his blog that I left with some interesting and challenging questions. Here is our conversation. My responses are in BLUE.
1. Ok, a couple of comments on your comments. First about the government. We need to remember that this country was founded by Christians and that the government was intended to a “for the people”. So, while most in our government today have probably frogotten what the government was originally founded on, I don’t think that the idea of servant leadership is really all that foreign in realtion to government.
So, now about pastors and ministry costing money. Do you believe that because a man is called by God to be a pastor that he does not deserve to be able to support his family? Yes, any man that works should be able to support his family. Are we not all, as Christians, called to be ministers. Yes! If we are all called to be ministers, then shouldn’t we set a cap on how much we should earn and then put the rest towards helping the poor? Absolutely not! Who would set the cap? Me as an individual, the church, or the government? Setting a cap on how much we should earn is called socialism, a liberal agenda and a slipery slope. After all, that is what they did in the Acts 2 church, “And all that believed were togoether and had all things comon and sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every men had need.” Here is a better translation “There was an intense sense of togetherness among all who believed. They shared all of their possessions in trust. They sold any possessions and goods that did not benefit the community and used the money to help everyone in need” This sounds more like they refused to live in excess, prefered to share their belongings, and sold and/or got rid of the worldly things.You’ll notice that it didn’t say that only the pastors sold their possessions. Actually, I have never seen the word pastor in the Bible. Please understand that this is not indended as an attack on you either, but just a point to make you think. I am always in thought, in search of knowledge. If we are all called to be ministers, then are you living up to the same standard you so agressively set for pastors. I didn’t set any standard for pastors. The amount of pay and priveleges given to a pastor comes from the church he/she leads…not me. I was just pointing out the large payroll expense and its affect on the church’s ability to effectively minister.
Now, as for the model of the church. First let me ask you, were you saved in a church building? Yes! Were you saved as a result of the ministry of a local church? I was a bi-product of a ministry effort geared towards reaching teenagers. It was the teenagers enthusiasm for a God that loved them that turned me on to Jesus. The ministry event was not constructed to reach unsaved 20 somethings. I know that I was, and that I might not be saved today if it wasn’t for the church building and the minstry of that local church. Wasn’t your father in ministry? Do you not contribute his life, teaching, an the example that he set as being the reason for your turning to Christ? If yes, then did you really need a church building, pastor, church ministry? My children will all be saved because of my example, my teaching, and my headship. While I certainly agree that there are many churches who have forgotten what it is all about, and I am as angry about that as you are, that does not mean that the model of church that includes regular weekend services is wrong. I never said it was. In today’s culture of working 60 hours a week, the weekend is still the best time to hold community church gatherings. Think about Paul. Think about Jesus! He spent no time setting up churches and dedicated his short life to a nomadic ministry life – loving, serving, and teaching. He dedicated his entire minstry to starting and building up the local church. These were churches with church buildings and regular weekend services. Would Paul have put so much effort into building a model that was not intended to be? Would God have put these letters in His word if there was no validity to the model? The model may have worked well 1730+ years ago, but a lot has changed. Just because this model worked back then, and it must not have been working to well (see revelations 3:15-16). This Laodicean church that Paul probably started wasn’t doing well. I believe God allows information to be in the Bible for informational/historical purposes. Not everything is a mandate. The creation account is a good example. It is purely information that alows us to know where we came from. The church’s historical information in Acts is there for us to know where we as a faith came from, not a mandate to do church this way, or else.
We need to remember that God created us, and created us all differently. As such there is no right or wrong as to how we should be the church. For some that may be forgoing a building and doing more of a grassroots evangelism. Which Jesus modeled…you follow Paul and I will follow Jesus. For others it will include a building. I think we need to be careful that we don’t assume that because some, even many, churches with buildings are very inaffective at reaching lost people, that the model is flawed. If “many’ churches to use your word I prefer “most” than the model is flawed. This is the opposite of “If it ain’t broke…don’t fix it.” The current church model is broken and it needs to be fixed. If you truly believe that forgetting the building is the only way to go, then how do you explain the ministries of Rick Warren, or Ed Young, or Andy Stanley? These men pastor churches with buldings and they are reaching thousands of lost people. Working as an organized body allows the impact to be increased. It does not guarantee increased impact, but it does make it possible. Rick Warren’s church is in a very affluent neighborhood in Southern California. Andy Stanley’s churches are in the most affluent neighborhoods in the Atlanta area. I have never been to Ed Young’s church(es) so I can’t speak to the neighborhood, but I know it is in the Dallas area where there is plenty of wealth and because he is a wise business person I am sure he knows what I am telling you, which is build a church is a well-to-do neighborhood and you will probably do well. To bring this debate closer to home…look at churches like Christ Community, Heartland, and Winter Haven Worship Center with big buildings and growing membership, all located in the SE Winter Haven area. How many growing churches are there in Wahneta, Eloise, Florence Villa – where ministry is desperately needed?
All that being said, I ask you what are you doing differently? I am not stuck in an unefective church still doing things the way they have been done for years. What are you doing that is reaching lost people. My desire is not to reach “lost” people my desire is to reach “all” people…anyone with a need. I am not part of the get them saved and move on agenda that purmeates our churches these days. I want to love people, because I love them…not with some kinda of distorted agenda that I need to get them to believe what I believe, vote the way I vote, and live the way I live, or else. How are you impacting the kingdom? Please understand that this is not intended to be an attack on you, nor is it intended to be a defensive response. You obviously have some very strong opinions about church, and I simply want to know what you are doing to carry them out? I teamed up with a group of men that wanted to make a difference and saw the same flaws that you and I are talking about. Unfortunately, things have changed now and I am on a new path. I will keep my ears open for a church that is missional and reaching people in new and innovative ways. The Gospel message never changes, but its delivery must. I agree that church needs to be different. Then what are you doing? I think that the church has done more to decrease the kingdom in the last 50 or so years, then anything the enemy has done, I disagree…I think we (the church) have alowed a few key “pastors” to be mouthpieces for us and allowed them to distort the most beautiful message the world will ever need. but I don’t think that simply talking about it is the answer. We must SHOW people what the church should be. We must show people the Jesus in us. People don’t care about what you believe until they believe you care. Jesus came so we may have life and have it to the fullest, but this is not what we tell people about Jesus, we tell people about Hell and sin and how the way they think and vote and live is wrong.
